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Herding Code 84: Ex-Microsoft Developer Panel with Mike Moore, Jeff Cohen, and Scott Bellware

This week on Herding Code, the guys talk to Jeff Cohen, Mike Moore, and Scott Bellware about why and how they’ve moved away from Microsoft development and into the Ruby community.

  • K Scott asks the guests about why they switched. Jeff talks about how his switch from desktop development on Windows to Rails development started around 2005 and was primarily driven by the Ruby language itself. Mike agrees that it’s all about the Ruby language. Scott B talks about how he straddles both worlds but only sees .NET as a smart choice for building Windows applications now. Scott B goes on to talk about how it’s a philosophical thing for him as well, and how he prefers to work on a stack that’s more purely open source.
  • Scott K talks about the dichotomy in moving from Windows to get away from a proprietary platform and then you find yourself working on a Mac. Go Debian! Scott B talks about how Vista was a tipping point for him to move to Mac. He felt like Microsoft was too focused on shipping products – even if they weren’t good products.
  • Mike and Scott B talk about moving from ALT.NET to ex-.NET, and how they feel like it’s fear and investments in the .NET platform that prevent more people from moving. The guys talk about the “technology treadmill.”
  • Scott K talks about the problems in “dropping paygrades” in moving from being a senior .NET developer to being a junior developer on another platform.
  • Mike Moore asks why developers are investing in a technology that another company owns. Scott B says it’s not about Microsoft owning .NET, it’s about not being able to make decisions about where the platform is going. He says he sees Microsoft as a manufacturer of 21st century office equipment for large companies with the most influence. It works, but it can be heartbreaking when you see Microsoft moving into markets in a way that’s not as elegant as existing technologies (e.g. Entity Framework) because you know that the surrounding industry will move there, and eventually your work will move there as well. The result is a technology treadmill.
  • K Scott points out that as the average developer, you’re not really in charge of where Linux, Rails, or other open source platforms are heading either. Mike and Scott B clarify; it’s not about ownership so much as trusting where the Rails community is going.
  • Kevin asks Jeff about some recent criticisms he’s made towards Rails 3 recently. Jeff talks about all the things he likes about Rails, but says that he is disappointed that Rails is making changes designed to broaden acceptance and appeal to the enterprise. Despite that, he says that he hasn’t lost faith in where Rails is headed. He brings up the relative ease of doing TDD on Rails as opposed to .NET as an example of how Rails works more like he wants to work as a developer.
  • Scott K talks about how Microsoft has a conflict of interest as a tools vendor, and how a willingness to work with other IDE’s makes moving to other platforms pretty easy.
  • The conversation move towards talking about how Intellisense affects system and platform design. Other platforms like Rails are built so you don’t need Intellisense to be productive. Rails was never built to sell anything, and that shows in the platform. Mike talks about how he had to leave the .NET platform to find a place where people really cared about getting from 12 lines of code to 4 lines of code.
  • Scott B talks about how Rails committers are all building Rails applications, and points out that WPF didn’t get the attention it needed until Microsoft used it in Visual Studio. He then talks about how Rails will feel free to make modifications (monkey patches) to Rails, which often graduate to plugins and then move into the core. The key is that this is a continuous process rather than focused on a big product release cycle. Scott B talks more about the Ruby/Rails meritocracy.
  • The conversation shifts to the entrepreneurial nature of the Ruby on Rails community. Mike talks about how development cost is a major factor and that people who will take a risk in moving to a new platform are also more likely to take a risk in business.
  • Mike and Scott B talk about how polyglot programming is much more prevalent outside of the Microsoft development community.
  • Scott B talks about how ASP.NET was positioned as a competitor to Ruby On Rails, and how the two differ.
  • K Scott asks how much the move away from .NET is based on culture and developers are looking for a new community with different values. Mike talks about how he was on the verge of leaving programming altogether when he found the Ruby community, and how it reinvigorated him. Scott B says that there are things about developing in the .NET space which drive burnout and, in turn, reduces passion in the community. Jeff talks about how stumbling on Ruby showed him that it was just a lot more fun than what he was doing in his current job.
  • Scott B talks about how the plugin experience in Rails differs from the .NET development world – where you’re often waiting for services that just aren’t quite there yet.
  • Mike and Scott B talk about how they like reading Ruby code. Scott B talks about how the Ruby culture places a value on making code readable to the point that it’s competitive.
  • Scott K talks about how programming has become a business now, but he’s always liked to learn things just because it was fun. Scott B says that the skill level in the Rails world seems to be higher, but the people are less intimidating.
  • Mike points out that many of the leaders of the Ruby community were previously leaders in the Agile community. Scott B talks about how he’s seen Uncle Bob Martin moving to Rails over the past few years.
  • Scott B then talks about the problems in toolmakers who make tools but don’t use them.
  • The show ends, but not really. lots of crazy speculation about starting over with a new runtime on top of .NET.

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Show notes compiled by Ben Griswold. Thanks!

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Herding Code 84: Ex-Microsoft Developer Panel with Mike Moore, Jeff Cohen, and Scott Bellware

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Jun 27

Herding Code 81: Simplicity, balance, and focus in teaching software development

This week on Herding Code, the guys discuss compare notes on how to teach software development topics. Is hands-on instruction key? How much should you simplify to focus on mechanics? How do you teach, and how do you like to learn?

  • Jon talks about his impressions on the effectiveness of hands-on learning at Web Camp Toronto.
  • K. Scott questions if people really learn at Code Camps, and Scott K. talks about hack-a-thons at Code Camps.
  • We talk about open source contributions as development. Jon demonstrates that he’s bad at doing math while he talks.
  • Jon asks Scott K. about what works for him with his training classes with Pluralsight.
  • We all talk about the MVC Music Store, and the gaps between marketing, introductory training, and advanced training.
  • Jon and K. Scott talk about the difficulty in finding the correct focus and simplicity level in introductory training.
  • Jon talks about the mistake he’s made several times in not clarifying the level of content he’s presenting.
  • Kevin talks about how he expects to see unit tests in any samples, but Scott K. says that won’t save you from public shame.
  • Scott K. asks if we should be focusing on concepts and “why?” questions rather than products or frameworks.
  • Jon and Scott K. talk about the fun of looking at the ASP.NET MVC source code.
  • Kevin comments on the difference in complexity he sees in .NET code and Ruby source code. Scott K. talks about how Fubu MVC code is pretty easy to read, too.
  • Jon asks about the difficulty of doing “real world” samples, and K. Scott asks whose real world we’re talking about.
  • K. Scott drops a surprise mini-lightning round on us with a question about the effectiveness of video as a learning tool.

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Herding Code 81: Simplicity, balance, and focus in teaching software development

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May 25

Herding Code 72: Questioning Uncle Bob, Clojure Magic, Mercurial Support at Codeplex, Thoughts About the iPad and Handerpants

This week on Herding Code, the gang discusses Uncle Bob’s self-titled blatherings about DI, IoC and Mocking, Clojure and polyglot programming, managed javascript, and recent support for Mercurial at Codeplex. The show finishes up with another K Scott Lightning Round with questions about the iPad and non-technical blog recommendations.

  • Uncle Bob recently published two articles which are a little down on DI, IoC and Mocking. Was he merely trying to get a rise out of the community or was he sending a subtle message about poor use of our tools?
  • K Scott attended Craig Andera’s Clojure Presentation at a recent DC Alt.NET meet up. This sparks a discussion about Clojure Magic – functional programming, transactional memory, concurrency and multi-threaded programming.
  • The guys talk about the polyglot programmer, Scala running on the JVM and Java interop. Scott K shares his interest in getting a Clojure, Scala and F# guy in the same room and Kevin gives his thoughts about the language explosion.
  • Scott K leads a conversation about managed javascript, node.js, and IronJS.
  • The group offers their opinions on Codeplex support for Mercurial and address questions like “Why not Git?” and “Does this make Codeplex more appealing?”
  • Lightning Round Question #1: Who’s going to buy an iPad?
  • Lightning Round Question #2: What non-technical blogs do you read?

Show Links:

Show notes compiled by Ben Griswold. Thanks!

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Herding Code 72: Questioning Uncle Bob, Clojure Magic, Mercurial Support at Codeplex, Thoughts About the iPad and Handerpants

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Feb 06

Herding Code 71: James Avery and Rob Conery on NoSQL and a bunch of other stuff

This week on Herding Code, James Avery and Rob Conery join the cast in a lively discussion about NoSQL, TekPub, the new DotNetKicks and the technical debate du jour, ASP.NET Web Forms vs ASP.NET MVC.

  • Kevin asks Rob and James to share their views on NoSQL and the use of object and document databases.  James challenges the idea that all data must reside in a relational databases. Are ORMs so last year?   What’s going to be happening in 2020?
  • Rob claims he wouldn’t accept a ride to the bar in an 18-wheeler.  Whatever!
  • Jon asks what we’re saving with object databases – don’t ORMs abstract the database away?  So what’s the point?
  • James pimps TekPub
  • Rob talks it bit about domain-driven design and how we marry relational tables to object-oriented system. K Scott fails to see how the choice of a UI pattern is influenced by the type of database one is using. Rob explains.
  • Jon asks about maintainability and supportability issues and what’s your boss going to think if you suggest moving away from your current relation database solution. James gives examples on why non-relational solutions are easy to maintain and support.  Rob talks about quick ramp up time, scalability and performance like he’s given the speech 1000 times before.
  • The guys pleasantly discuss MSDN.and VB.and ASP.NET Web Forms.
  • K Scott shares his opinion on the future of MVC, Web Forms, Silverlight and Sharepoint as they will exist both inside and outside of the firewall.  Scott K, James and Rob also offer their opinions (shocking) and Jon’s chance to interject is taken away when the luminous “Page Lifecycle” crashes down upon him. 
  • James and Rob dig a little deeper into object and document databases and normalized database nightmares are exchanged.
  • Kevin asks how versioning works in an object database, the guys speak of Json and Bison, and serialization and deserialization.  James speculates that object databases will ultimately be more popular than document databases.
  • Rob addresses the idea that he’s condescending and rude.  The group talks about opinions and share their views on recent technical debates – ASP.NET MVC vs Web Forms, VB vs C#, ORMs vs Stored Procedures, and Jets vs Sharks. Can’t we all just get along?
  • Rob and James pimps TekPub again.
  • K Scott kicks off a flash lightning round – one question about VB6.
  • Rob answers Twitter question from @elijahmanor about TekPub’s technology stack and elaborates about video options.
  • James pimps DotNetKicks.

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    Herding Code 71: James Avery and Rob Conery on NoSQL and a bunch of other stuff

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    Show notes compiled by Ben Griswold. Thanks!

    Feb 01

    Herding Code 69: Scott Bellware on HTML Specialists

    This week on Herding Code, Scott Bellware returns to talk about . 

    • Scott talks about the frustrations in working with “HTML Specialists”
    • Scott discusses the team issues caused by specialists in a software team who aren’t in touch with the entire product development cycle
    • The problem with handoffs: loss of workability
    • Eventually, things turn to the technology issue involved in working with HTML and CSS
    • Are HTML tables necessarily evil
    • Scott and Scott K discuss whether CSS purity is a premature optimization
    • Jon and Scott discuss whether clean markup can be deferred until the end of a project
    • Scott talks about the lunacy of delivering design work as “final”
    • Scott talks about how optimization fights with workability
    • Scott enumerates some of examples of websites which might not benefit from accessibility
    • Jon posits that tables might not be easier than CSS design, it’s just what we learned first
    • Scott K talks about how CSS floats drive him nuts
    • Scott talks about how crazy CSS is when viewed as a programming language
    • K Scott talks about some technological workarounds like lesscss
    • Scott talks about how he doesn’t see Silverlight as an improvement, because it brings along a lot of other challenges
    • Scott talks about how working in teams and in “small batches” solves the problems with handoffs
    • Scott talks about the joy of a January 1st project date

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    Herding Code 69 – Scott Bellware on HTML Specialists

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    Jan 22

    Herding Code 68: New Year Shenanigans

    In this episode of Herding Code, the gang talks about what happened last year and what they think will happen in the years to come.  Oh, and K Scott brings us the first lightning round of 2010!

    • How will the guys manage the show in 2010?  Google Docs and listener requests?
    • Are you bitter because today’s coder has little appreciation for how rough devs had it 10 years ago?
    • Phone wars. Big, smart ones. Will Android dethrone the iPhone?
    • Place your bets!  Biggest box office hit in 2010: Ironman 2 or The A-Team Movie?
    • You don’t see the Fail Whale quite as often, but it’s still fun to listen to the guys continue to complain about Twitter and its clients.
    • Next ten years – will C# continue to rule the .NET roost?
    • Ever ask WolframAlpha “Who uses this site?”
    • What secret project is John Lam working on?  Will IronRuby live on?
    • You love maps, right? K Scott does too.   Who knew?
    • Ever wonder if the iSlate will take over the (Kindle) world?
    • Are you planning to improve your skill set in 2010? How?
    • Really? Jon’s default search engine is Bing! How’s about that Infinite Scroll!

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    Herding Code 68 – New Year Shenanigans

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    Show notes compiled by Ben Griswold. Thanks!

    Jan 14

    Herding Code 61: CodePlex Foundation, Bing Visual Search, Microsoft Ajax CDN, Zune HD Release

    This episode of Herding Code is a roundtable discussion which includes the entire cast. The guys dedicate the majority of the show to the CodePlex Foundation – what the foundation provides, speculation on what the foundation might accomplished, and how success should be measured.  The guys also offer a glowing review of Bing Visual Search, they dig into the Microsoft Ajax CDN, and give their opinions of the recent Zune HD Release.

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    Herding Code 61: CodePlex Foundation, Bing Visual Search, Microsoft Ajax CDN, Zune HD Release

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    Show notes compiled by Ben Griswold. Thanks!

    Oct 06

    Herding Code 58: Presentation Patterns with Jeremy Miller, Ward Bell, Rob Eisenberg and Glenn Block (Part 2)

    How about that?  You stuck around!  It was the Waylon Jennings, Good Ol’ Boys, Dukes of Hazzard, freeze frame cliffhanger at the end of Part 1 which hooked you, wasn’t it?  Undoubtedly you have been on the edge of your seat for days, just waiting to see how the show turns out.  Well, wait no further.  Here’s the commercial free, dramatic conclusion to the longest Presentation Patterns discussion ever.

    When we last left our heroes, Jeremy Miller, Ward Bell, Rob Eisenberg and Glenn Block were in the thick of their discussion.  Jeremy had just finished explaining the role of the Screen Conductor and Ward was ready to start flushing out implementation strategies.  That is, implementation strategies which might work across most solutions. 

    But thankfully, Glenn starts by stepping back a bit and asking how the presentation patterns discussion fits in the context of mainstream development.

    Will the guys provide a single answer to the age-old question, “Which came first the View or the ViewModel?”  Is there a one size implementation which fits all solutions?  Will this conversation ever end?  Find out this week on Herding Code.

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    Herding Code 58: Presentation Patterns with Jeremy Miller, Ward Bell, Rob Eisenberg and Glenn Block (Part 2)

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    Show notes compiled by Ben Griswold. Thanks!

    Aug 24

    Herding Code 44: Microbusiness

    Whether you just want to write cool software for yourself or you are looking to kick off a side business, you can get started with little upfront investment. This week on Herding Code, the guys talk about the ease of becoming a one-man independent software vendor (ISV.)

    • Scott K starts off the show with a list of free online invoicing and financial tools along with a number of services which provide free disk space.
    • Jon notes that advertising and micropayments are cheap and easy to setup in minutes.
    • Kevin talks about his recent endeavor, review2Q, an ASP.NET MVC application, hosted in the Azure cloud, which helps automate the management of his Netflix’s queue. It was an itch that he just needed to scratch and, with little overhead on his part, it’s now available for you, too.
    • The guys discuss super cheap hosting and the numerous APIs and Services which provide tons of data available to re-mix.  They also discuss using Azure or Google App Engine to scale up as one grows. 
    • Jon comments on how free site templates and store/blog theme systems can make design a snap. 
    • Jon also calls out the fact that for most web developers the barrier to entry is so low.  Thus, one is somewhat susceptible to having their idea quickly copied.  This raises the question; will your investment pay off long-term? 
    • Kevin jokes that there’s an alternative approach to implementing your own, self-serving solution – just wait long enough and someone else will implement your idea.
    • Kevin and Jon discuss why the web is such an appealing platform to start a venture. It is all about the low barrier to entry, the instant gratification and immediacy of making your product available and easy accessibility.  Not to mention many sites are self-sustaining.
    • The guys brainstorm a few one-man startup website and mobile development ideas, wonder if they would ever again hear from Jon if he came upon 4 million dollars and question whether or not K Scott has fallen asleep.

    Show Links:

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    Herding Code 44: Microbusiness

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    Show notes compiled by Ben Griswold. Thanks!

    Apr 23

    Episode 35: Fun at work

    This week on Herding Code, K. Scott kicks off an amusing conversation about office pranks and general fun in the workplace:

    • Jon explains why you might send goat pictures to your coworkers.
    • Kevin comments about the hazards of new carpet installation.
    • K. Scott talks about making an HP Printer come to life.
    • And learn why you must always, always keep one eye on Jon when he’s working…

    Show Links:

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    Episode 35: Fun at work

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    Feb 14

    Episode 34: *Chirp and Witty – WPF Twitter Clients

    This week on Herding Code, Jon, Kevin and Scott K discuss *Chirp (since renamed blu), Witty, Twitter usage, open source and WPF development:

    • The guys review *Chirp, a new WPF Twitter client from thirteen23.  Scott compares *Chirp to Paris Hilton, Jon reminisces about old Simpsons episodes and Kevin shares that *Chirp is very pretty, nicely designed, and what WPF is all about.
    • Kevin, Jon and Scott discuss their involvement with the Witty project. The guys talk about their favorite features, most wanted enhancements, and how they hope the project will evolve going forward. Jon subtly promises a Witty Easter Egg.
    • The guys briefly talk about Twitter, how they manage their “rivers of information” and how varying strategies makes Twitter client design/development difficult.  Not to mention what is/isn’t available via the Twitter API…
    • Jon and Scott comment on drive-by contributors and general challenges of open source development.
    • The guys candidly talk about learning/knowing WPF and the difficulties of debugging WPF applications without tools.  Kevin shares how WPF violates the principle of least surprise and Jon shares why making a textbox’s background is difficult.

    Note: *Chirp has since been renamed to blu. We tried to get the folks from thirteen23 on the podcast, but we didn’t hear back grom them until after this show was published. We still love them, though!

    Show Links:

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    Episode 34: *Chirp and Witty – WPF Twitter Clients

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    Feb 06

    Episode 33: Intertube Inauguration and Questions From Listeners

    This week Kevin leads a discussion about the inauguration on the web, then we field some questions from listeners.

    Topics
    • Live inauguration video on Silverlight sites
    • Photosynth picture of the inauguration
    • whitehouse.gov on webforms – will Viewstate bring down the presidency?
    • Armchair quarterbacking the whitehouse.gov site
    • whitehouse.gov updates robots.txt
    • And Twitter didn’t die!
    • Question – What is the one thing I should learn this year
    • - K. Scott – SOLID, dynamic languages, WPF
    • - Jon – Pick something, declarative UI, get involved in something
    • - Kevin – SOLID Principles, WPF
    • Question – Comparing working in Web, RIA, and WPF
    • Side discussion: What’s the deal with ClickOnce?
    • Whoa! Scott Koon joins us mid-call!
    • Quick discussion of jQuery 1.3
    • Question – What is the one thing Scott K wants to learn this year?
    • - Scott K. – Expressions
    • - K. Scott – I agree that Scott K should learn expressions
    • Side discussion: Why are companies so slow to upgrade .NET versions?
    • - Jon – Go, go, go!
    • - K. Scott – Not enough must-have features
    • - Kevin – Requires customers to upgrade

    Jan 29

    Episode 30: Year-end wrapup

    K Scott leads the discussion as we look back at 2008, and speculate wildly on what 2009 has to offer.

    Note: Scott K’s taking a podcasting break to change diapers and stuff.

    Looking back at 2008

    • Google Chrome
    • Kevin’s new iPhone
    • Kevin’s Firefox extension addiction
    • Hulu
    • IE8 – better than expected, but still a ways to go
    • ASP.NET MVC
    • Silverlight 2
    • Oslo
    • Azure
    • Visual Studio 2008 SP1
    • ADO.NET Data Services
    • REST is finally accepted in the .NET world
    • The Seinfeld / Gates ads
    • OpenID
    • Netbooks (Oragami at last?)
    • Twitter’s recovery
    • Overhyped stuff: Surface, cloud computing, multi-core madness
    • Functional programming
    • DI/IOC hitting the Microsoft mainstream
    • [sidebar - the tradeoff between DI benefits vs. Silverlight XAP size]
    • StackOverflow
    • [sidebar - frustration with Microsoft forums]

    Looking forward at 2009

    • Windows 7
    • Office 14
    • Project Pink? (Zune on Windows Mobile)
    • [sidebar - frustrations Zune]
    • WPF in Visual Studio
    • [sidebar - is there a correlation between unmanaged code and lame Microsoft products?]
    Links

      Download / Listen

      Herding Code 30: Year-end wrapup

      Jan 06

      Episode 27: What Every Web Developer Needs To Know

      Kevin leads a discussion on what every web developer needs to know.

      Topics

      • Javascript – language or toolkits?
      • Does clean HTML matter? What are the tangible benefits?
      • Working with designers who only speak Photoshop
      • Basic usability
      • Tools every web developer needs
      • Progressive enhancement
      • K. Scott introduces the Lightning Round
      Links

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      Herding Code 27: What every web developer should know

      Nov 24

      Episode 25: PDC 2008 Podcaster Roundtable with Deep Fried Bytes and StackOverflow (part 2)

      While we were at the Microsoft PDC 2008 conference, we met up with the guys from the Deep Fried Bytes podcast as well as Jeff Atwood (StackOverflow, CodingHorror) for a podcaster roundtable. The first part of this discussion is over at Deep Fried Bytes (Episode 18).

      Download / Listen

      Herding Code 25: PDC 2008 Podcaster Roundtable with Deep Fried Bytes and StackOverflow (part 2)

      Nov 07

      Episode 21: Real World Development

      This week Jon leads a discussion of real world development. We talk about how our development practices in our jobs and personal projects match up with the way we’re “supposed to be” developing. Topics:

      • What are the non-negotiable practices that we always use on any code we write?
      • Jon isn’t always Test Driven. Does that make him a bad person?
      • Where do code reuse and maintainability stack up when it comes to other real world priorities, like hard deadlines and short technology lifespans?
      • Is there a place for “forms over data” development? How about System.DraggyDroppy?
      Links

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      Herding Code 21: Real World Development

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      Oct 10

      Episode 19: Pajama Driven Development (working remote)

      This week Scott K leads a discussion on remote work, remote access technologies, and synchronization software:

      • What software and services help with remote development
      • The joy of being your own network admin
      • Source control implications (TFS, Subversion, GIT)
      • The social tradeoff – fewer incidental conversations, more intentional conversations
      • Remote access software
      • Synchronization software
      Links

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      Herding Code 19: Pajama Driven Development (working remote)

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      Sep 26

      Episode 17: Browser Roundup

      This week Jon leads a discussion on the new crop of browsers:

      • What’s new in Google Chrome
      • Comparison of Javascript engines
      • What does crazy-fast Javascript mean?
      • Is Webkit taking over? Why’s Firefox sticking with Gecko?
      • IE8 Compatibility Mode – Will it save us from IE6?
      • Is it time for the IE team to try “File/New/Browser”?
      • Do web standards mean anything when IE doesn’t support them?
      • Where does Silverlight fit in?
      • Objective-J

      Links:

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      Herding Code 17: Browser Roundup

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      Sep 11

      Episode 16: Interviewing Software Developers

      This week Kevin leads a discussion on interviewing software developers:

      • What interview styles we find effective
      • What sort of questions actually help us evaluate a candidate
      • Why API trivia and puzzle questions don’t work
      • Hiring mistakes we’ve made based on errors in our interview style
      • Why we don’t do very well when the tables are turned and it’s our turn to be interviewed

      Download / Listen

      Herding Code 16: Interviewing Software Developers

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      Sep 04

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