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	<description>The Herding Code Podcast</description>
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		<link>http://herdingcode.com/?p=232&#038;cpage=1#comment-11148</link>
		<dc:creator>Twitted by o_k</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 17 Feb 2010 12:38:56 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://herdingcode.com/?p=232#comment-11148</guid>
		<description>[...] This post was Twitted by o_k [...]</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>[...] This post was Twitted by o_k [...]</p>
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		<link>http://herdingcode.com/?p=232&#038;cpage=1#comment-10722</link>
		<dc:creator>Isaac Lin</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 05 Feb 2010 04:36:31 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://herdingcode.com/?p=232#comment-10722</guid>
		<description>Though the points regarding integrating teams together are well-taken, I think there was an over emphasis on the specific example of web design. Most of the raised issues were not specific to HTML/CSS, but outsourcing a portion of the work and trying to force the work to occur within a specific time frame, instead of integrating it appropriately with other related work.

Regarding &quot;workability&quot;, a good design agency should understand the different components of each web page, and build them as distinct parts, so that they can be dealt with in a mostly standalone fashion from the rest of the page.

Comparing CSS to a procedural programming language is an apples-to-oranges comparison. CSS is a declarative language; you state the rules you want to enforce, and the browser applies them. Criticizing the complexity of the rules (and the cascade) is fair game, but comparing it to for statements that change their meaning seems inapt.

The float property continues to have a place in web pages, not just print; however, its use to generate columns is problematic. The support offered by CSS3 for columns is a better approach and allows content to automatically flow from one column to another, something that cannot be done with tables.

Lastly, note that the intent of CSS is to decouple the HTML source from how it is presented, which increases the amount of independence between the back-end code generating the HTML and the visual design. Though it doesn&#039;t fully achieve this goal, certainly compared with a mass of nested tables, it is much simpler to make changes to the HTML generation or the layout.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Though the points regarding integrating teams together are well-taken, I think there was an over emphasis on the specific example of web design. Most of the raised issues were not specific to HTML/CSS, but outsourcing a portion of the work and trying to force the work to occur within a specific time frame, instead of integrating it appropriately with other related work.</p>
<p>Regarding &#8220;workability&#8221;, a good design agency should understand the different components of each web page, and build them as distinct parts, so that they can be dealt with in a mostly standalone fashion from the rest of the page.</p>
<p>Comparing CSS to a procedural programming language is an apples-to-oranges comparison. CSS is a declarative language; you state the rules you want to enforce, and the browser applies them. Criticizing the complexity of the rules (and the cascade) is fair game, but comparing it to for statements that change their meaning seems inapt.</p>
<p>The float property continues to have a place in web pages, not just print; however, its use to generate columns is problematic. The support offered by CSS3 for columns is a better approach and allows content to automatically flow from one column to another, something that cannot be done with tables.</p>
<p>Lastly, note that the intent of CSS is to decouple the HTML source from how it is presented, which increases the amount of independence between the back-end code generating the HTML and the visual design. Though it doesn&#8217;t fully achieve this goal, certainly compared with a mass of nested tables, it is much simpler to make changes to the HTML generation or the layout.</p>
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		<link>http://herdingcode.com/?p=232&#038;cpage=1#comment-10525</link>
		<dc:creator>Mike</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 02 Feb 2010 09:09:47 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://herdingcode.com/?p=232#comment-10525</guid>
		<description>Did you really have to beat the horse? It&#039;s been dead for years...</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Did you really have to beat the horse? It&#8217;s been dead for years&#8230;</p>
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		<link>http://herdingcode.com/?p=232&#038;cpage=1#comment-10337</link>
		<dc:creator>adam</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 28 Jan 2010 14:35:05 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://herdingcode.com/?p=232#comment-10337</guid>
		<description>YES! So glad to hear this. CSS Nazis are running around unchecked. 
can i put this form in a table? No? YES. A form is a two-column table.
The backlash starts here!!!</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>YES! So glad to hear this. CSS Nazis are running around unchecked.<br />
can i put this form in a table? No? YES. A form is a two-column table.<br />
The backlash starts here!!!</p>
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		<link>http://herdingcode.com/?p=232&#038;cpage=1#comment-10276</link>
		<dc:creator>Davy Landman</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 27 Jan 2010 08:54:02 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://herdingcode.com/?p=232#comment-10276</guid>
		<description>I was actually struggling with the same problems on my team, we have a designer in the same room, but he has problems integrating with our development process. Even source control has been hard to sell.

But I&#039;m thinking about discussing a more hybrid approach to chunk up the work in small pieces to get the designer more involved and avoid the duplicate work.

So thanks for the insights, was a interesting discussion :)</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I was actually struggling with the same problems on my team, we have a designer in the same room, but he has problems integrating with our development process. Even source control has been hard to sell.</p>
<p>But I&#8217;m thinking about discussing a more hybrid approach to chunk up the work in small pieces to get the designer more involved and avoid the duplicate work.</p>
<p>So thanks for the insights, was a interesting discussion :)</p>
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		<link>http://herdingcode.com/?p=232&#038;cpage=1#comment-10230</link>
		<dc:creator>Stan</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 26 Jan 2010 13:54:20 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://herdingcode.com/?p=232#comment-10230</guid>
		<description>I enjoyed hearing Scott B&#039;s insights. Good show. It&#039;s something I haven&#039;t thought about. 

K. Scott: I fell off my seat at the sexually deviant designer part.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I enjoyed hearing Scott B&#8217;s insights. Good show. It&#8217;s something I haven&#8217;t thought about. </p>
<p>K. Scott: I fell off my seat at the sexually deviant designer part.</p>
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		<link>http://herdingcode.com/?p=232&#038;cpage=1#comment-10129</link>
		<dc:creator>Scott Bellware</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 25 Jan 2010 05:38:24 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://herdingcode.com/?p=232#comment-10129</guid>
		<description>GazNewt,

That&#039;s not exactly the message of the interview or the subject.  The point is not learning HTML and CSS, something I have a pretty good proficiency with after doing it since installing Spy Glass off of a disk that came with O&#039;Reily&#039;s Best of the Web.  The point is understanding and commanding productivity to a level rarely seen in software projects, something that requires understanding application markup.  That understanding doesn&#039;t come from doing HTML and CSS, but from optimizing software product development efforts.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>GazNewt,</p>
<p>That&#8217;s not exactly the message of the interview or the subject.  The point is not learning HTML and CSS, something I have a pretty good proficiency with after doing it since installing Spy Glass off of a disk that came with O&#8217;Reily&#8217;s Best of the Web.  The point is understanding and commanding productivity to a level rarely seen in software projects, something that requires understanding application markup.  That understanding doesn&#8217;t come from doing HTML and CSS, but from optimizing software product development efforts.</p>
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		<link>http://herdingcode.com/?p=232&#038;cpage=1#comment-10119</link>
		<dc:creator>GazNewt</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 24 Jan 2010 22:43:06 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://herdingcode.com/?p=232#comment-10119</guid>
		<description>I write and code and design/css without a problem. Yeah css is a bitch to learn but that&#039;s all you have to do. In the time it takes to moan about css you could have learnt something!</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I write and code and design/css without a problem. Yeah css is a bitch to learn but that&#8217;s all you have to do. In the time it takes to moan about css you could have learnt something!</p>
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		<link>http://herdingcode.com/?p=232&#038;cpage=1#comment-10067</link>
		<dc:creator>Herding Code 69: Scott Bellware on HTML Specialists &#124; Herding Code &#124; Drakz Free Online Service</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 23 Jan 2010 02:41:17 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://herdingcode.com/?p=232#comment-10067</guid>
		<description>[...] original post here: Herding Code 69: Scott Bellware on HTML Specialists &#124; Herding Code   Share and [...]</description>
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		<link>http://herdingcode.com/?p=232&#038;cpage=1#comment-10064</link>
		<dc:creator>Herding Code 69: Scott Bellware on HTML Specialists &#124; Herding Code &#124; Drakz Free Online Service</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 22 Jan 2010 22:23:08 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://herdingcode.com/?p=232#comment-10064</guid>
		<description>[...] original here: Herding Code 69: Scott Bellware on HTML Specialists &#124; Herding Code   Share and [...]</description>
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		<link>http://herdingcode.com/?p=232&#038;cpage=1#comment-10057</link>
		<dc:creator>John Petersen</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 22 Jan 2010 17:39:40 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://herdingcode.com/?p=232#comment-10057</guid>
		<description>Nice interview with Scott. When you have a lot of specialists, it tends to lead to silos - and that creates a big problem with hand off. In this day an age where there is no bright line between application areas, it is far better to have generalists who have one or two areas of concentration. That said, there are times that you may need a css, java script, or some other kind of ninja to help tackle a specific problem. So in that regard, we shouldn&#039;t turn off to specialists as a per se rule.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Nice interview with Scott. When you have a lot of specialists, it tends to lead to silos &#8211; and that creates a big problem with hand off. In this day an age where there is no bright line between application areas, it is far better to have generalists who have one or two areas of concentration. That said, there are times that you may need a css, java script, or some other kind of ninja to help tackle a specific problem. So in that regard, we shouldn&#8217;t turn off to specialists as a per se rule.</p>
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		<link>http://herdingcode.com/?p=232&#038;cpage=1#comment-10050</link>
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		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://herdingcode.com/?p=232#comment-10050</guid>
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